Interview with Ma Yansong from MAD

Filip Šenk: You studied both in China and in the United States. Can you compare these experiences? Is there a big difference between them?
Ma Yansong: Yes, there is. From my experience, a bad student in China can be a good student in the USA. At least that applies to architecture. In China, there are too many rules and regulations. I think I myself was not exactly an exemplary student. It was a bit depressing in China, so I didn't go to school much; I just read books and magazines in the library. When I got to the USA, the environment was open and free. Students here can easily find what interests them. I think that is important for students. To be themselves.

FŠ: You studied under Zaha Hadid. What was that like?
MY: My experience with Zaha is that she is very open. Whenever I do something "not Zaha," she likes it. I believe she gives a lot of people inspiration, and that is exactly what a good teacher should do. I wouldn't say she tries to teach students to be Zaha. That would be silly. She introduced me to contemporary art, which I didn’t know much about before. I knew some works, yes, but I had no idea who the authors were or how these people think. Every time Zaha came to the school, she brought me a lot of books. We talked about them. Today we also work on exhibitions, collaborating with artists. That is important for us.

FŠ: You have achieved success, i.e., you are building large structures at a relatively young age. Typically, young architects do not get to large realizations. How did you manage that?
MY: I think it is peculiar. Architects always have ambitions. In the beginning, we participated in a lot of competitions, and when we really won a competition for the towers in Canada, I was quite scared. Until then, we hadn't built a single structure. And suddenly, a skyscraper. However, when the opportunity comes, you have to seize it. And so we started to learn the practice on the go.

FŠ: You first made a name for yourself abroad, and only then did you get projects in China. This is quite surprising when one considers the many projects happening in China.
MY: Today there are indeed many opportunities in China, and they are quite diverse. Urban planning is developing, there are many natural projects underway, as well as small towns. There are really many opportunities here; young people should seize these chances. I usually encourage all young architects to go to China. Many competitions are new for everyone. For Chinese architects, as well as for all foreign architects. Compared to the past, there is a significant difference in what it means to be a good architect. It is not only about mastering the practice. It is about being yourself. A lot of opportunities also bring a lot of traps. So many opportunities can occupy you so much that you may lose yourself. You don’t have time to think.

FŠ: Is the reason for your success your unusual perception of architecture?
MY: After we won our first competition, it became easier to obtain more projects. People simply realized that we could handle a project. That is a purely practical viewpoint. However, I believe that good architecture can touch human emotions. It doesn't matter whether the idea comes from a child's drawing or from an adult architect. Also, some architects have many opportunities and contracts. But that doesn’t necessarily mean they are doing good architecture. Clients may hire them for purely practical reasons. However, I believe that if you can create something that touches people... If you put your emotions into the architecture, then you can move human emotions. That is a way for young architects.

FŠ: Is art important to you?
MY: It is extremely important to me. Because artists are much more critical compared to architects. Most architects like to serve and collaborate. That is not what artists do. The value of their work is based on independence of thought. The same should apply to architecture.

FŠ: Do you think architects are too willing to compromise?
MY: Exactly. When it comes to visual arts – it always affects me somehow. Although when it creates an ugly atmosphere, environment, the work does not touch me much. But it makes me think about architectural space. Today, when our cities are getting bigger and bigger, it is necessary to see them as sculptors try to shape space; it is impossible to get rid of the appearance of buildings. However, as a result, many buildings come across as traditional paintings. Those buildings just seem to hang there, and so they cannot really affect people. I hope we can create architecture with a good atmosphere.

FŠ: Where do you draw inspiration for your unusual solutions, for your unusual forms?
MY: Primarily from emotions. At least at this moment. I love nature, I love art, I love many things. But these things cannot be directly transformed into architecture. I simply sense the things I love and observe what emerges from them. So my architecture does not have a cohesive style; I don’t have a cohesive language. Everything is about emotions for me. When I come to a site, I feel like I should do this or that.

FŠ: Do you try to visit the future construction site?
MY: Sometimes.

FŠ: Do you draw a lot by hand?
MY: Yes, I always make a lot of sketches. I like using old bad pens and paper. I don’t want to take the sketches too seriously. It’s a bit freer in a way; it’s also a release, a relaxation.
I have found that it is difficult to think about atmosphere and then translate that directly into architecture, because you do not think only about shape or form. There are many ways to achieve that. It is similar to verses, more precisely finding the right verse.

FŠ: Are you interested in how people react to your buildings?
MY: Yes, of course. I like to watch. I like to hide somewhere and see how people behave. For the Ordos museum, I designed a kind of strange landscape around the building. At first, I had in mind just the idea of a desert; I wanted to somehow preserve the memory of the original place. I didn’t think much about people. And today many people gather there, lie down, and nap. Every day before dusk, around a hundred people, or even more, show up and take a nap there. Some media call it a "ghost town." Where do these people come from? Why do they go there? When I observe this, I feel quite satisfied.



FŠ: In your lecture, you mentioned Buckminster Fuller. Are you interested in the history of architecture?
MY: No, I learned something in school. I am interested, yes, but I am more interested in people as personalities. How did they think? How did they make their buildings? I also have a few friends who are historians, and they sometimes tell me stories and histories that are interesting.

FŠ: Your project Super Star has attracted a lot of attention. Where did this idea come from?
MY: For me, it is really peculiar. It is an expression of explosion. I think it exactly describes how I felt when I was invited to the Venice Biennale. Each time, Chinese architects tried to show some traditional buildings. I find it strange. I feel quite embarrassed when I see so-called Chinatown around the world. They look exactly like they did a hundred years ago. Full of Chinese restaurants, there is always a traditional gate at the entrance, and people just keep going there. But that is fake China. It’s like McDonald's; people think this is China. So I told myself I had to do something special, but maybe it’s just too special. Many people even felt some kind of threat.

FŠ: Are you trying to get rid of tradition? Or to connect with it in a contemporary way?
MY: I’ll give you an example. I once went to a traditional Chinese garden, but I didn’t feel anything there at all. Later I realized why. When I went there, the garden was a public place, there were many people there. However, the garden was designed a long time ago as a private place. If you are in such a place alone with music and candles, then the atmosphere will be right. However, when it becomes a public space, it’s wrong. I think the philosophy of traditional architecture lies in creating an environment, not in using visual elements. Simply copying these elements would not make sense. History should not stop us from continuing into a new future. There are, after all, possibilities to build something new that can make sense and evoke feelings of beauty, similar to traditional architecture.

FŠ: How do you perceive the role of the media in architecture? Do you feel that some buildings are designed primarily to look good in magazines or online? Is there a risk of "flattening" architecture?
MY: Exactly. The media influence many things. Most media do not lead to criticism. They simply promote new designs. That is also good... I have the impression that this works well in this capitalist society. When people see something appearing frequently in the media, they consider it good architecture. People themselves lose their judgment of what good architecture is. So it is up to the architects themselves, because today, in the age of the internet, anyone who is visible enough can become famous. While this helps young architects since otherwise, they don’t have many opportunities to highlight themselves. However, they must understand that after some time, when they grow older, no one will care about what the media wrote fifty years ago. No one will remember them. What they build will remind people of them. In the end, simply put: good architecture is good architecture.

FŠ: What qualities must good architecture have?
MY: My favorite building is Salk Institute by Louis Kahn. A lot of photographs can capture the emptiness of this architecture, but they cannot show what it’s like when you are in the main square where you can see the ocean. You actually see nothing, but you are touched by the space. For me, that is the quality. I often imagine what it was like when Louis Kahn first visited this place. What he saw. The landscape is empty. And today, when you visit that architecture, you still feel something, and maybe in a hundred years, people who come here, people from the future, will still feel something. Such timeless architecture is truly beautiful. That is the most an architect can achieve. When people from other times, other cultures are moved by your building.

FŠ: Do you have an architectural dream?
MY: I love the works of Louis Kahn. If I manage to achieve something similar, that would be great; that is my personal goal. But it is just my personal goal. However, I want to achieve that in a different way. As I said in the lecture, it takes time. I do not believe that a young architect could really achieve something like that.

FŠ: If I’m not mistaken, this is your first time in Prague. How do you like the city?
MY: I like the combination of landscape and city. I knew the Dancing House; I saw it a long time ago. But it still surprises me in Prague when you really see it. I was quite surprised that back in the early 90s it was possible to build such an avant-garde building in such a city. It’s strange that there was only one. The rest of the city is old, really old. I feel a bit of melancholy from the old cities. It is similar to what I have designed for Beijing. The old city has its value, yes, but it is far more valuable when people are connected to the city. It is not just about the buildings themselves. I also stumbled upon newly colorfully painted facades; it seemed strange to me. They do it in a way that makes it seem fake; it feels a bit like Disneyland. Of course, I understand that these are old buildings, that they need to be refurbished, that owners want them to look new. Maybe people are too afraid to touch old buildings too often. They are so afraid that they lost their chance to control their new lives. In this way, I simply think that modern society needs more openness and more communication. Some old buildings are too closed-off.

FŠ: So would you like to contribute your part? Would you be interested in building in Prague?
MY: It would truly be an honor. The city, the landscape, and the history; that is something very powerful to me. A good city like this deserves beautiful new modern architecture. When an opportunity really arises, if something really comes up, I will take it.